A glimpse inside the walls
What follows is a comparison of Eurocentric values and mind-sets and indigenous philosophies resulting from a dialog in the form of a deposition made on behalf of a Native Circle member being considered for release from prison. The Attorney General prosecutor asked me questions to help the court understand the value of ceremonial traditions for the rehabilitation of prison inmates. The answers to the prosecutor's questions were configured to help bridge the gap between cultures and for the betterment of the prison population overall. The perspectives I share are my own and reflect my personal experience of the Sweatlodge over a 35 year period and are not intended to represent the totality of Indigenous traditional knowledge, teachings or perspectives.
DEPOSITION part 1
DEPOSITION UPON ORAL EXAMINATION OF BRADLY MIX
On Behalf of the Petitioner:
Office of the Attorney General
On Behalf of the Respondent:
Defense Attorney
EXAMINATION
BRADLY MIX, being first duly sworn testified as follows:
Q. I’m an assistant attorney general, so I’m an attorney for the state. Do you
understand that?
A. Yes.
Q. And we asked you here to give testimony under oath and you were just placed under oath by the court reporter, right?
A. Yes.
Q. Thanks. So I know you’ve been deposed before and now it looks like you remember to please say yes and no so the court reporter is positive of what she’s supposed to write down.
A. Yes.
Q. So the way that I try to do this is this in an opportunity for me to get information to kind of know what you know.
A. Okay.
Q. And that means that I’m going to interact with you in real time. I don’t have a set list of questions to ask you.
A. Good.
Q. The up side of that is we will be hopefully communicating but the down side is I’ll be forming the questions in real time. So if I ask you a question that I think makes sense but you don’t, you need to tell me, hey, I don’t understand what your question is, okay?
A. Okay. One thing -- can I ask this before we get started?
Q. Sure.
A. I know the structure is a win and lose kind of a structure because of the court situation. Quite honestly I’m becoming more and more disillusioned in that setup. I would really like to hear more of a dialogue about what is the appropriate situation that we’re seeking for this individual versus whether or not he wins or loses in this case. I don’t know if that is even possible. But it would be really great if you guys could take that in.
Q. Well, I’m just going to tell you this: Can we go back off the record? I think we’re going to have an informal discussion for a few minutes and then we will get started.
A. Okay.
(Off-the-record discussion.)
Q. We are going back on the record at about 10:27. We’ve had an informal philosophical discussion, I guess, about sort of about my role and Mr. Mix’s role, and I think we sort of agreed on some informal rules in the context of how he’s going to be treated and we’ll see how this goes.
THE WITNESS: And objectives.
MYSELF: And objectives, right.
I think that’s a fair part of the discussion. With that I will try to start the deposition.
Q. So the first thing I will ask you to do, as a formality, is go ahead and state your full name and spell your last name for the court reporter, please.
A. Bradly Jesse Mix
Q. Thank you, sir. And it’s my understanding that you’ve been deposed before.
A. Yes.
Q. And so you, I assume, know that this is similar to what one might give in court except that it’s a different setting.
A. Yes.
Q. And I’ve been told that my approach is kind of informal with the question and answer, but I don’t want that to sort of trick you or make you think that -- you know, there’s somebody here that’s writing down what you say and that’s why we’re here, right, because we want to have a record of everything that was said.
A. Yes. I sense that you’re mentally well organized.
Q. I think so. We’ll see if we have to revisit that at the end too.
A. It will be on tape.
Q. Exactly. I’m going to try really hard, even though I’m a little over caffeinated probably this morning, to not talk over you, not step on your answers, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. Even if you think you know what I’m going to ask, try to wait for the end of the question before you respond, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. One of the things I have learned in this process is it’s amazing in regular conversation how much folks, not even being impolite to each other, how much folks talk over each other.
A. Yes.
Q. I don’t think we’re going to be doing this for a real long time, but if you at any point need a break or just want a break, all you have to do is say, I want to take a break. Is that okay?
A. That’s good.
Q. The one thing that I would ask is that we take a break between questions not between a question and an answer. Is the distinction clear?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have any process questions for me before we start? Do you think you understand what we’re going to try to do?
A. I’m familiar with the process and I have a sense for the way you proceed so I’m good with how we’re going.
Q. So we’re here on a case involving someone named John Doe.
Do you know John Doe?
A. Yes.
Q. How long have you known John Doe?
A. I can’t be sure, but I’m thinking four years, maybe as many as five.
Q. If you recall, generally under what circumstances did you meet Mr. Doe?
A. I recall meeting John at the Prison.
Q. Before we go into the specifics of you developing a relationship with Mr. Doe, what were you doing or what was your role at the Prison at the point in time when you first met Mr. Doe?
A. At that time I was an active Metis elder and liaison for the Prison and acting as an elder which is a spiritually grounded guide or leader for the spiritual community, the Native spiritual community at the Prison.
Q. And I think you used a word that’s specific -- was it Metis?
A. Metis, yes, that’s my nation. I’m from the Metis nation, Red River Metis to be specific, in Manitoba.
Q. Would you spell that, please, for the court reporter just so we get that right.
A. M-E-T-I-S.
Q. Before we get to Mr. Doe I’m going to explore that history in the context of the things that you’ve done out at the Prison since you’ve been going out there first so you know generally what I want to ask you about next.
A. Okay.
Q. So when did you first start going to the Prison?
A. Oh, it’s been 11 years ago.
Q. How did you find out about a need or a perceived need for what you do at the Prison?
A. I’ve been involved in the sweat lodge and the various Native ceremonies since I was 18. I’m now almost 62. So it’s been a long involvement. One of my acquaintances, was the Native chaplain at the Prison under the senior Chaplain. And since I knew her through various ceremonial gatherings, she was aware of me, and at one point she invited me to come out and do a sweat lodge with the men at the Prison.
Q. Was that the first institution that you had visited in that context?
A. Yes.
Q. And subsequent to that, between then and today, are there other institutions that you provide, can I call it your services just to keep it really vague?
A. Sure.
Q. That you provide your services to?
A. Yes. I’m a Metis elder with the VA sweat lodge for the returning Veterans from Afghanistan and Iraq as well as some of the other foreign wars like Vietnam.
Q. About how long have you been doing that?
A. For four and a half years.
Q. I’m not asking you right now about the actual spiritual practices, I’m asking you sort of about the processes by which you get there and get set up and get in contact with people, the administrative-type stuff. How is that, if it is, different from working at the Prison and the VA?
A. Well, first of all, there is a community that is being served by the sweat lodge, okay. Now, how that community comes together, that’s the difference. The sweat lodge is primarily the same, the ceremonies are primarily the same. Some of the considerations in the ceremony are different based on, you know, the needs of population to be addressed.
The population at the Prison comes from the general prison population, which I believe is somewhere over 300, and out of that population of men a certain percentage of them want to be part of the Native program at the Prison and so they come on set days when the sweat lodges occur. And then, you know, we as elders, we come out on those days as well.
At the VA, the VA sweat lodge program is recognized component of VA treatment for post traumatic stress, so we’re recognized that way, and we have a Website which has a schedule that anyone can find online. But we also have links from the VA Website to our Website for scheduling, and that’s how people come and find us as well as we also have men and I believe some women that come from the domiciliary, those are individuals that are usually in serious jeopardy of, you know, self-harm or addiction.
Q. So those are folks that you serve at the Veterans facility?
A. Yes.
Q. And when you do that, is that on the grounds of a government hospital or something of that sort?
A. Yes it is.
Q. So when you first started coming to the Prison, you described yourself as an elder.
A. Yes.
Q. Do you have a different role now or has your role in the sweat lodge at the Prison stayed pretty close to the same thing over the 11 years that you’ve been going out there?
A. Well, I was under 60 years of age when I first started going out there. Usually you don’t achieve an elder status until you’re over 60. However, I would say about five years ago people started recognizing me as someone who had enough ceremonial experience to be referred to as an elder. So that began to start taking place. Now given that I’m almost 62 and with all of my years of service in the ceremony communities, I’m more and more recognized as an elder as time goes on. It’s the type of thing that builds. It’s not like you get a degree, you know, you develop a reputation essentially.
Q. It sounds more like sort of a gradual and informal transition than sort of a formal -- so as a counter example, I know when I was practicing martial arts you have this belt and you have that belt and you have this belt, but it doesn’t sound like that. Am I getting that right?
A. Well, it can. There are some components that could be correlated to that and has to do with some of the responsibilities that you carry. You’re kind of measured by what it is that you’re responsible for and the way in which you’re able to fulfill on those responsibilities, and those have to do with not only some of the ceremonies but some of the songs, as well as care of the sacred items that are associated with our ceremony. So it can have a little bit of what you’re talking about, but mostly it’s informal. People recognize that you’re carrying the responsibilities in a good way and it’s affecting people in a good way. That is like, as they say, the proof is in the pudding. That’s how that works.
Q. So during the time frame when you first met John Doe, what was the process of becoming a member or a part of the Native Circle at the Prison?
A. Oh, let’s see, from what I understand there were a few questions that were asked of the individual to make sure that they were actually safe to be out at the Prison Sweat lodge grounds, and that is really done by the Native Circle members themselves. So they make sure that if there is a person that has a tendency towards violence or some diminished mental faculties, they try to determine to what degree they can be trusted around a fire or to handle an ax, for the cutting of wood, those kinds of things, and also whether they’re able to be respectful. Respect is essential for the sweat lodge to exist. It’s not a brick and mortar building, It’s fragile, it’s made of willows tied together with string, so one of the teachings is that the only thing that keeps a Sweat lodge standing is respect, respect and consideration .
Q. So when you said safe to be out there, if I understood you right you’re talking more about the possibility that some of the artifacts or the components of the ceremonies are something that somebody who wasn’t careful or that wasn’t --
A. Mindful.
Q. Mindful -- great word -- could hurt themselves with or possibly hurt someone else with, right?
A. Yes.
Q. And it sounds from your answer to the last question that you are not part of that decision-making process.
A. Well, I have influence over that process, myself, and other Elders have influence over that process.
Q. How do you exert that influence?
A. By example. We influence by example. Our understanding of the ceremony and the criteria that needs to be maintained for the ceremony to be traditional and to be safe. We teach and practice that aspect of ceremony every time we do it. The end result is an understanding that becomes part of the mentality and value system that rules the Native Circle leadership. So when they ask questions, they ask those natural questions that are in keeping with the ceremonial values and teachings of the Sweat lodge.
Q. And so I want to explore the relationship of your group with the folks at the Prison, the administration or the management or whatever we want to call it, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. So I actually knew a certain Native Elder in his prior role at the Prison.
A. Mr. NA
Q. Yes, Mr. NA
A. Oh, Ok.
Q. Does anyone else in your group of Native Elders do a similar sort of parallel liaison function to the one that you do?
A. I have documentation that was created by the senior Chaplain and myself and signed off on by the Warden, the Clinical Director.and the Vice Warden. This documentation defines my role as Metis liaison.
Q. I guess part of the reason I’m asking is because you are, as I understand it, identifying yourself as liaison with the modifier of Metis.
A. Metis liaison meaning that my work comes from a traditional orientation, which is Metis. We are cousins of the Native Americans (Indians). And our role is to look to the Native community’s needs and to make sure that the administration understands the nature of those needs and the adjustments that can be made to address those needs and some of the value related issues they should pay attention to. I also play a role in helping the security teams knows what the potential inmate triggering issues are for various individuals, especially during searches of their private cell rooms for example. And then with clinical personnel, I help sensitize them to some of the values that make up part of the Native mind set which helps the clinical people provide better therapeutic processes.
Q. So is there, if you know, is there another individual that fulfills a liaison role with a different modifier, so someone instead of the Metis liaison they would be something else liaison?
A. There is no other liaison paperwork that I know of. However, every one of the other Native Elders contributes in their own unique ways. However, as I already said the senior Chaplain wrote up the Metis liaison document specifically so that I could have conversations with certain key individuals without my having to go through the chaplain. interface.
Q. Talk to the people at the Prison?
A. Yes. Like, for instance, I had direct conversation with the Clinical Director for years whereas if I hadn’t had that Metis Liaison paperwork in place, I would actually be breaking the institutional protocols.
Q. So the thing was structured, it sounds like, drawing on Chaplain 1’s understanding of the administrative structure out there.
A. Absolutely.
Q. It sounds like you’ve been out there long enough now that you have personal relationships with some of the -- like the Clinical Director has been out there a long time too. I don’t know if she’s been out there as long as you have.
A. She’s been out there many years, probably eight, I think. However, she is no longer in that role as clinical director. I believe Dr. NA is now, but I haven’t had a chance to have a conversation with her since she took over that role.
Q. So is it your understanding that there is some sort of ethnic requirement to be a member of the Native American Circle at the Prison?
A. I’m not sure what you mean by that. Do you mean Racial?
Q. Yes. I’ve heard in the context of money coming from different tribes that one had to show that they had a certain blood quantum I think is the phrase that I’ve heard. Is that something that you’re familiar with?
A. Oh, you mean to be a member of a tribe?
Q. Yes.
A. Every tribe has their own issues around that. I am Metis. That doesn’t apply to my story, so I can’t speak for other tribes.
Q. Right. So I was using that only as an example. Is there something like that? In other words, could someone who as far as they know is strictly of European heritage be a member of the Native American Circle out there?
A. Absolutely they could.
Q. That probably answers the next question. Does it matter with respect to being able to be a member of the Native American Circle if one was raised in Native American culture or kind of came to it later in life? Is that a fair question or does that not make sense to you?
A. Oh, do you mean like a Native person raised in an urban environment
and then comes to it later in life?
Q. As I understand it there is a lot of folks that have Native heritage that weren’t raised in that culture, they were raised essentially in the European or the United States, whatever you want to call it, if there is such a thing as a United States culture. That’s kind of an open question, right?
A. There is for sure.
Q. They didn’t know or didn’t practice the teachings, the language, the culture of their heritage.
A. That’s absolutely true.
Q. And would those folks also be eligible for membership in the Native American Circle, assuming they met the requirements we talked about previously?
A. Yes. Now you’re getting into the purpose of the ceremony.
Q. I probably know just enough to lead you to that and let you talk about it, okay?
A. Okay, very good.
Q. Not probably more than that, but I have actually done a little bit of homework before we got down here today.
A. Awesome.
Q. So we’ll see what comes of that. So now having talked about how generally one becomes a member of the Native American Circle, and it sounds like it’s not like a checklist process, it’s a more case-by-case process; would that be fair?
A. Yes, for sure.
Q. So for getting into graduate school, for example, I had o have to certain things checked off, right. They didn’t just look at me as a whole person and say, well, if you don’t have this type of degree then you can’t do the next thing, right? It doesn’t sound like it’s that kind of process.
A. No.
Q. It’s more what’s your intention, are you willing to abide by our practices.
A. Absolutely.
Q. You said the word respectful a bunch of times here today.
A. Yes.
Q. Does that capture it better than some sort of formalized process?
A. Yes. Oftentimes when you enter into something new you’re ignorant, right, so what you have to do is you have to carry the attitude of respect so that you can eventually come up to speed and learn some of the nuances before jumping to any conclusions. That takes patience and respect.
Q. And then if an individual who has been accepted as a member -- and I’ve seen some documents that folks had signed that were agreements to abide by rules and things of that sort -- is that something that you do?
A. Yes, yes, I’ve seen the -- are you talking about the documents that were generated by the Native Circle?
Q. Yes, sir.
A. Yes, I’ve seen those.
Q. So it’s my understanding that there are situations under which a person can then sort of be on the outs with the Native Circle or not be admitted. I don’t know exactly what the correct term for that is.
A. Yes, you’re right about that.
Q. How does that happen? What kind of things can lead to one being, I’ll just use the word excluded for now and then I’m going to explore that more with further questions.
A. Well, one example can be if an individual is using drugs. That’s one clear violation.
Q. Before you go on, can I just follow-up on that?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. How would you know?
A. There is a discovery process that they go through internally and I believe some of that -- I mean, people get away with what they get away with for however long they get away with it until it becomes clear to other members of the circle that that’s what’s going on. And when that’s discovered, then it’s brought up, they’re confronted with it, and if it’s true or not, then they go forward from there. That’s what I understand.
Q. When you say that’s what you understand, it sounds like you don’t participate in that process.
A. I don’t participate in that process. It’s internal to the group. They inform us as to the outcome of things, what’s going on and what’s being considered. We don’t live their lives for them, we are guides. They make their decisions. We try to influence the best possible outcome, and that’s it. However, the formation of this official structure was the result of the Native Chaplain being laid off out there. And at that point in time I was still going out there in my volunteer capacity as an elder or evolving elder, I should say, and it was really clear that many of the things, the Native Chaplain had done, were not going to get done by anyone from the remaining Prison staff. So the men of the Native Circle through my influence formed an organized group that enabled them to interface with the administration and with the senior chaplain. That’s how it began, and they’ve carried it on from there. We the Elders are made aware of their election process and who is currently the leader of the group and some of the issues that are being discussed and the changes to their policies and so forth.
DEPOSITION PART 2
Q. So I’m going to finish that part up and then I’ll go back to what we were talking about that led us to that. So is it your understanding that the Native Chaplain was a paid employee at the Prison at one point?
A. Yes.
Q. Was it your understanding that that was a full-time position?
A. No, it wasn’t full time. I think it was around 32 hours.
Q. But more than one day a week?
A. Oh, yes, for sure.
Q. And then it sounds like your understanding is that -- and I say your understanding because I assume you don’t have firsthand knowledge, it’s something that somebody told you -- is that at some point the Native Chaplain was laid off or no longer employed out there.
A. Right.
Q. Do you recall approximately when that happened?
A. Eight, nine years ago, I think.
Q. So subsequent to that, then you were -- your liaison sounds like it was with the lead chaplain mostly at that point.
A. Yes. It wasn’t long after that that the senior Chaplain and I sat down and had a conversation about what was needed.
Q. And that’s what opened up the other lines of communication that you have to the administration?
A. Right. I have my own business and what was structured had to do with my time of availability and also since the Native Circle was developing their own internal organization or administrative and community representation, then I needed to have some more conversation and insight into the issues with not only security and the overall philosophy of the administration, the Warden, but also what was the clinical objectives that were in place and whether or not what we were doing was syncing up with their objectives.
Q. Do you think it’s important that the clinical process at the Prison and the spiritual guidance or teachings -- if spiritual is not -- is spiritual a word I can use?
A. Yes, although we (I) have to modify that. We have a different understanding of what that word means.
Q. What would you call the overall -- I just need a descriptor of the overall process that you are involved in. If it’s not spiritual, what would you call it?
A. Well, spiritual is the word, but we need to define the nature of that word. Spiritual in our terms has to do with a philosophy of life, okay, because we look at life as the foundation of our spirituality. So there is -- there is a grounded aspect to our spirituality that plays itself out in a philosophy and a certain psychology. And that plays itself out in terms of value systems and the choices that we make as a result of that value system.
Q. So do you believe that the Native American practices that are in place at the Prison have to, I think you used the word mesh, with the general clinical process that -- should I call it European -- the clinical process that’s part of the Prison program?
A. They should for the best outcome.
Q. And what type of things do you have to do to try to facilitate that meshing or the co-existence or whatever the right word is for the fact that if everybody is straight about it, you’re providing some sort of benefit to the residents and the Prison staff is providing some sort of different benefit to the residents.
A. Okay. And this is where we get at, you know, divergent paths. We get assumptions that are in place that actually have two different goals. And there’s a misunderstanding between the two, the two value systems, the two cultures. For instance, one of the things that the clinical people were surprised to find out was they didn’t understand why the Native Circle members didn’t want to participate in therapy. They couldn’t understand the reasoning behind it. I told them, the one thing that I’m hearing from the Native residents is that they didn’t like going into therapy with a therapist trying to teach them how to become a white man. The Clinical staff still couldn’t understand what that really meant. So, what was needed was some understanding of the cultural values that define us as a people and that those values drive our motivation. Anything that takes us away from our value systems erodes at our identity. Once that was understood, there was more nuance to the clinical language and their approach to talking to the Native residents, and that has changed things considerably for the positive. They also began to understand that one of our ceremonial goals is to prepare the men for therapy, so there’s really no trying to replace one with the other. It’s a matter of getting things lined up so they track.
Q. So you don’t sound like you see it as an either/or kind of thing.
A. Oh, absolutely not. When you have both the ceremonial and the clinical you have a very, very powerful and good end result.
Q. So do you actively encourage residents who are not treatment participants to participate in the treatment program?
A. Absolutely, but with the caveat of them being clear enough about who they are to help their therapist understand what it is they need.
Q. So that’s --
A. As a Native person.
Q. That wasn’t something that -- I actually couldn’t translate that into something that is meaningful for me. Can you give me an example, without naming a person? How would one not be ready to --
A. Okay. For instance, like you mentioned earlier, and this is true of really all people, people who are ignorant to their own condition, their own state as it were. And those people are often times the ones who get into trouble. So awareness needs to grow and how a person becomes aware of what’s going on inside of them, what are those forces, what are those precepts that they were born into, and how they influence the way they evolve and the way they see things, their perspective on things, their perception of things. Those are all things that need to be in place to a certain degree so that they can, in the case of a Native person, so they can say, yes, this is who I am, these are the value systems that I try to live up to and I hold close because they’re important to me and it helps me to know who I am. And then they need to be able to talk to their therapist. If the therapist is not aware, the patient needs to be able to make the case to the therapist about what it is that they’re about, what it is they need. And then the therapist can work with those issues in a respectful way and hopefully help bring a person along by saying things like - So, these are your values. Well, are you really living up to those values? That’s the kind of guided conversation that comes from awareness.
Q. And I’ve been assuming since the day I started this work that the value system of that organization would include not committing things that are against the law in the state of Washington. Is that a correct assumption?
A. That is very correct.
Q. So there is at least common ground to start with; is that fair?
A. Yes. There are many commonalities.
Q. Can you tell me what some of the other ones are? I think sometimes when people talk to you they focus on the things that are divergent, people in my position when they talk to you. So what things do you see as easily co-existing?
A. Well, respect for law and order, respect for earned positions of responsibility, respect for commitment and sacrifice, respect for elders who have achieved and been able to maintain you might say a higher level of understanding about the nature of life and going forward. Those people are cherished in white communities as well as Native communities, a respect for harmony and co-existence, a respect for -- and this is where the Metis and the Native community really excels, and that is the concept of inclusion. We are very inclusive in terms of accepting other spiritual traditions and actually incorporating them and allowing them to co-exist with our own. So that’s actually one of the highest values that we have. And there is a commonality with the larger culture and the Freedom of Religion Act, which actually co-exists right alongside of our value systems. So you’ll find people that are Buddhist and Christian and Muslim. I haven’t run into a Muslim in ceremony yet, but they would be welcome in our ceremonies as long as they were able to be respectful of the ceremony.
Q. That’s helpful. So now I think I’m at the point where I want to give you an opportunity to explain what you see as the role of the practices that you engage in generally and if it’s different or if it’s more narrow with the respect to the residents at the Prison. So if that’s too broad of a question, I’ll say that I’ve read a couple of papers that talk about generational trauma and things of
that sort.
A. Okay.
Q. And it’s my understanding that that’s one of the important tenets that lies underneath the practice. Is that correct or am I wrong about that?
A. I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Are you saying that trauma is one of the issues that’s addressed or it’s part of the spiritual practice?
Q. Well, it’s my understanding that one of the things that the spiritual practice was intended to address was this trauma issue.
A. Yes.
Q. So it was also my understanding that the purpose, if that’s not too specific of a word, is broader than that, that’s not the only objective.
A. Yes. But they are actually kind of answered simultaneously.
Q. So if you’re comfortable with a really vague question, I’ll just say just explain to me how you see the role of the practices that you are liaison for in the lives of the men at the Prison.
A. Okay. Let me see if I can answer this holistically. Are you aware of something called ancestry.com?
Q. I’ve heard of it.
A. Well, a lot of people take part in ancestry.com as part of their genealogy research that they take on, usually for their own reasons around their personal family story, and that’s important to people for a variety of reasons. Well, in our culture we look to our ancestral line as the basis by which we understand who we are today and also some of the things that our ancestors stood for and how those sacrifices and values basically play themselves out in our lives today. So the role of trauma is that trauma became such a -- and this is the nature of trauma overall -- that trauma becomes such an important event or series of events that it winds up obscuring that ancestral influence. The trauma becomes more important than the ancestral line, the influence of the ancestral line. So we wind up with trauma that becomes an influence that in some cases, in many cases, results in the breakdown of families, breakdown of communities, breakdown of value systems, breakdown of the individual and eventually you wind up with a hand-to-mouth survival mentality that I believe results in criminal behavior or self-deprecating behavior. So what we do in ceremony is we take them into an environment that essentially is, you might say it holds the individual in a larger context than their personal experience with trauma. The ceremony itself is a reflection of those things that were handed down from before memory. So you’re talking about a ceremony that links us to a history that existed well before the traumatic events that altered Native American culture. So that’s essentially the role of the ceremony. It takes us all the way back to the good that existed before the great fall. I mean, that’s it at its source. The ceremonial protocols, the language, the songs that are sung, those things that we focus on, those are built right into the ceremony, and those teachings are as old as the sweat lodge itself. So it plays out on many, many levels. It’s kind of a history lesson. It’s a way of essentially connecting with the intent of the ancestors who did that very same ceremony for the very same reasons. So you can see, I mean, the implications are huge,
and the more you do ceremony, the more often you do it, the more you’re able to link with that history.
Q. It sounds like you see behavior of the individual as in part contact stuff of their view of themselves on the planet or in the community of other individuals.
A. Oh, absolutely, yes, yes, great perception.
Q. So having been cut off, if that’s not --
A. No, it’s perfect.
Q. -- cut off from that between the 1500’s and the 1800’s, I guess depending on where one was located on this continent, being cut off from that culture, many people have been left to drift. Am I oversimplifying? I’m sure I’m oversimplifying things, but I’m trying to get the gist of what you’re telling me.
A. Yes. And we’re talking about generations of pain and loss.
Q. So as a counter example, we have folks from, you know, refugees from Laos where the whole culture was essentially wiped out in the 1960’s, and I’ve worked with some of these. Some of these people grew up without parents or without any kind of connection, and that was a short time frame, but they were completely isolated from their culture, sometimes with really dramatically bad
results.
A. Um-hmm.
Q. So if I understand it -- and, again, I’m oversimplifying because I’m sort of trying to get a big picture understanding of where you’re coming from, that by
putting people back in touch with the culture from whence they came that was successful at teaching people how to behave, you have an impact on the way these folks behave going forward. Does that capture part of it?
A. Oh, absolutely, yes. And it’s profound in its effect.
Q. Tell me why you say that.
A. Well, first of all, the sweat lodge itself, even for people that are nonnative who come to the lodge in need, and I’ve seen this at the VA, you know, men who have post traumatic stress, in some cases hopeless, and they’re out in the domiciliary and there’s a reason for them being there, they will come into the lodge with kind of a look of hopelessness in their eyes. Sometimes even after one round of the sweat lodge you can see the lights come on in their eyes again. The lodge provides a different context in which to evaluate one’s problems. It is built into the nature of the lodge. The environment itself is so completely different and the spirit of hope and the way in which that is promoted ceremonially through how its led, it has a very powerful effect. And I can’t underscore enough the effect that it has on people. Now, it is important that the purpose of the individual is in keeping with the good outcomes that are possible through the lodge. So what we do is we help a person elevate their purpose in being there, and that comes through education, in some cases actually therapy can help elevate a person’s purpose, so with that statement we come full circle to see how one affects the other.
Q. So I’ve had conversation with some of your colleagues about this notion of the elevated purpose and how the individual is prepared for that. Can you explain to me what you mean by that? Pretend that I, if it makes it easier, pretend that you were trying to help me elevate my purpose in coming to this sweat lodge. How would you do that process?
A. Okay. for instance, let’s say that you were stuck on wanting to keep a grudge alive and came to the sweat lodge seeking strength in being able to maintain that grudge, then that is not an elevated purpose and the outcome of the lodge for you would simply be less than what’s possible and may even support you in continuing that line of thinking with potentially very negative outcomes. However, if you come to lodge with the idea of sweating to relinquish negative personal issues in favor of the larger concepts and ideals and awarenesses that can be brought in from the ancestral line, those things that were life affirming, that once maintained and grew the relationships that were and are so important, not only to the sweat lodge ceremony itself but to the larger community that individuals are currently responsible for and have historically been responsible for, then those personal grudges and gripes begin to just fall away, because one understand that one's purpose is in alignment with a much greater truth and purpose, one which is holistic, sophisticated and mature.
Q. And it sounds like one might be able to sort of translate that more specifically to the fellows at the Prison. So trauma sounds like it’s related to the way they’ve grown up and the attitudes they have and their personality and these things have all contributed to their offending behavior.
A. Yes. We have what we call a trauma remediation group which is basically a trauma education group -- we come together and we talk about the issue of trauma and how it’s played out in our families. Sometimes there is some emotion in the way these stories are told. But more important it’s about getting an understanding of the shared experience of trauma for all decendents of Native heritage. We all share it, we all have stories to tell about how it has played itself out in our families. Earlier you talked about people that are raised in the urban environment, they have no language, they have no ceremony and no culture. Well, the one thing they (we) all have and share is compromised family systems, dysfunctional families. And then when you trace that back, eventually we find the original loss event(s), Once you can see that line, you can see that pattern of it as it plays out even today. So the issue of trauma, once it’s understood, a person can put into context some of their bad choices, why those seemed rational at the time . Like, there’s nothing else for them so, they just kind of throw everything aside. They have nothing to live for and so they take what they want and they don’t care about the consequences for anybody including themselves really.
Q. I think it’s an idea in sort of traditional corrections work that somebody has to have something to lose --
A. Exactly.
Q. -- in order to --
A. Wonderful that you brought that up. I almost said that.
Q. All right, we’re on the same page on that. So one of the things that seems like it’s been harder to mesh the two sort of approaches is my understanding is that in the Prison treatment program there’s a fair component of confrontation.
A. Yes.
Q. And there are folks in treatment -- let me try it a little bit differently. There are folks that I have spoken to who have progressed in treatment who have said one of their early obstacles was denial. Is there a component of the sweat lodge that helps people address that and how does that work?
A. Yes. Now, this is going to sound strange, and of course, now I’m not going to talk for all elders; I’m going to talk for myself and the way I understand things.
First of all, and I was taught by Stan H, and he is a Lakota elder, 85 years old, Korean war veteran, Sundancer, deeply ceremonial rooted, but he said you never take something away from someone unless you give them something first. So essentially with the individuals that have committed some pretty heinous crimes in many cases, they have to have something in place before they can really approach that difficult material. So their relationship and their understanding of who they are ceremonially and through their ancestral line, it’s imperative that that be strong enough for them to actually be able to confront the issues and make good use of that confrontation. So it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.
Q. That’s actually quite helpful to me to try to understand, you know, the disconnect between these two approaches. So as I understand the Prison treatment process, one of the things that happens is the therapists have access to these records that say -- and I’m not suggesting that these are the unvarnished truth, but they’re the things that people said these guys did or the things they pled to or the things that they previously told people they did. There’s a variety of the source of this information, right, and those are part of the, for good, bad or indifferent, it’s what follows these guys through the process in the government.
A. I’m very aware of this.
Q. So the question I have to ask is how do you know when the guy is being straightforward with you, if you do, or is that not part of your role?
A. Okay. That’s an interesting question. I’ve had somebody ask me how do you know these guys are telling you the truth.
Q. Can I move the question over a little bit. I think it was Mr. NA actually who told me once that when the person wants to ask the creator for help in working
through something, then that person has to kind of know what they want to work through.
A. Yes, I would agree with that.
Q. And I thought that was one of those, you know, sounds obvious until you realize, until somebody said it to you 1you didn’t know, that kind of thing.
A. Um-hmm. No, that’s a good answer.
Q. I think it was in a conversation he and I were having about something along these lines -- and I’m not speaking for Mr. NA -- but my sense was that wasn’t part of the role was that you’re not checking off to see if the guy’s perception of what he’s done matches the records.
A. Yes. I mean, our way is a way of sacrifice. The sweat lodge is definitely an uncomfortable place to be. And you don’t go in there to prove what a tough guy you are. You go in there to make sacrifice for something better. And that can be for your own improvement and it can be for the well-being of someone else. The bottom line is the most powerful sacrifice is the sacrifice that’s made out of love. So that connection has to be in place for the true potency of the experience to be something that’s realized and to make a change in an individual. Once a person is able to do that, you’re talking about a person that is profoundly different. And even facing their crimes, it has to come from that place. So we’re talking about, you know, years and years and years of practice that result in people incrementally changing towards the good, towards the good, towards the good until they can eventually face the truth of what they’ve done and then address the issues appropriately.
Q. Okay.
A. So it’s not like you can take them in and say, are you telling me the truth. It’s much deeper than that. And we as ceremonial elders, we can feel it. It’s the kind
of thing that’s -- it’s pretty clear when a person is, you know, trying to talk to you about something versus actually embodying it. So we pay more attention to the state of the person than even the words coming out of their mouth.
Q. So we’re all on sort of a restricted timeline, and my goal was to explore the areas of this that I thought were most likely to come up, right. I wasn’t trying -- I was trying to engage you in a philosophical discussion, but I was trying to sort of guide it to sort of on point to the case. Does that make sense?
A. Oh, no, it’s perfect, appropriate I feel.
Q. So I’m about to shift my focus to Mr. Doe, okay?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. And I just thought if you feel that what we have talked about so far has been too much guided by me and you think there’s something that you want to tell me, you know what I mean, the sort of limited duration to put everything in context, this would be an opportunity for you to do that. Does what I’m telling you make sense to you?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. I want to make sure that you don’t feel like I sort of tried to push you into a corner and gotten you to say things that give an inaccurate perception of what you folks do out there.
A. I don’t think so so far. It sounds to me that your questions were in alignment with the, and responsive to some of the things that I previously said, and so I think that the line of questioning has been a deepening of the understanding. And that’s what I had hoped would happen.
Q. Sometimes we in a trial situation, sometimes we’ll ask yes or no questions. And having been on the other side of that, I think that sometimes makes people feel that, well, you didn’t really let me tell the story, you just tried to get me to agree with you or disagree with you or whatever. And that’s not what I’m trying to do here. So with that, as long as we’re good with that, I’m just going to kind of move specifically to Mr. Doe, and I think I will be pretty brief.
A. You’ve done a good job up until now.
Q. We talked sort of informally about that at more length, I think, than you obviously anticipated off the record; is that fair?
A. That’s fair, yes.
Q. Other than the things that we’ve talked about during the deposition, what sort of things do you think that if you were allowed to you would provide to the court? What would you tell the court if you were allowed to?
A. Oh, I have some very clear ideas of the kind of therapeutic approach, psychological therapy that’s appropriate that I believe syncs up with the sweat lodge, the experience and the concepts around the sweat lodge. And so, you know, I would probably like to state those things that I believe are a must for John to get the best possible care and treatment ongoing.
Q. Tell me what those are.
A. I believe I might have described it earlier to NA. It has to do with somatic therapy, which is a very highly effective form of therapy for trauma. And if you need more information on that, you need to look up Peter Levine and how he works with veterans and the concepts of trauma around trauma. Trauma is understood to be something that has less to do with the psychological processes and has more to do with the actual state of the being which the psychological processes come out of. So the therapy form, which somatic therapy is, it addresses the state of the individual first. And I believe that’s an important difference in therapeutic models.
Q. And going from a situation that’s quite restrictive to a situation that is unrestricted has challenges; is that right?
A. Yes, exactly. You just said something, a situation that’s restricted versus unrestricted. The restriction that a person with a criminal history as well as no understanding of the influences of trauma, those things that trigger and drive
a person, if those understandings are not in place then it’s It’s almost a reckless abandon to letting someone out who hasn’t accomplished, you know, some level of insight into their own state of being. So the restrictions that you’re talking about which are external, need to be in place internally. That’s what we’re talking about here. And so if you go to sweat lodge, you’ve got a community of people that you frequent with, you’re involved in recovery, you’ve got a community of people that support you in that and you go to a therapeutic resource that is on target, that comprises a community of not only support but also a mental container of understanding and safety. So that needs to be clear in this court process so that people can really evaluate whether or not John is ready for release.
Q. I think I’m just at the point where I’m going to do a couple of housekeeping things, because one of these things I do as part of this process is test my
assumptions. I think I know things just based on inferences from the information, and I want to solidify some of those, okay?
A. Okay.
Q. I think you told me, it seems like a long time ago probably to you, about how you sort of came to the position that you’re in in the community. Do you have a
formal psychological training or anything like that? Formal is not the right word actually. I should say European, through a university or something like that?
A. Yes, I went to Kent State University in a commercial art direction and corporate identity program. I’ve also attended Northwest Indian College in their drug and alcohol counseling program. So, I’ve probably got about seven or eight years in college.
On Behalf of the Petitioner:
Office of the Attorney General:
I’m finished. That’s all the questions I have for you.