Sweatlodge & RECOVERY from PTSD

 Q. So I’m going to finish that part up and then I’ll go back to what we were talking about that led us to that. So is it your understanding that the Native Chaplain was a paid employee at the Prison at one point?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it your understanding that that was a full-time position?

A. No, it wasn’t full time. I think it was around 32 hours.

Q. But more than one day a week?

A. Oh, yes, for sure.

Q. And then it sounds like your understanding is that -- and I say your understanding because I assume you don’t have firsthand knowledge, it’s something that somebody told you -- is that at some point the Native Chaplain was laid off or no longer employed out there.

A. Right.

Q. Do you recall approximately when that happened?

A. Eight, nine years ago, I think.

Q. So subsequent to that, then you were -- your liaison sounds like it was with the lead chaplain mostly at that point.

A. Yes. It wasn’t long after that that the senior Chaplain and I sat down and had a conversation about what was needed.

Q. And that’s what opened up the other lines of communication that you have to the administration?

A. Right. I have my own business and what was structured had to do with my time of availability and also since the Native Circle was developing their own internal organization or administrative and community representation, then I needed to have some more conversation and insight into the issues with not only security and the overall philosophy of the administration, the Warden, but also what was the clinical objectives that were in place and whether or not what we were doing was syncing up with their objectives.

Q. Do you think it’s important that the clinical process at the Prison and the spiritual guidance or teachings -- if spiritual is not -- is spiritual a word I can use?

A. Yes, although we (I) have to modify that. We have a different understanding of what that word means.

Q. What would you call the overall -- I just need a descriptor of the overall process that you are involved in. If it’s not spiritual, what would you call it?

A. Well, spiritual is the word, but we need to define the nature of that word. Spiritual in our terms has to do with a philosophy of life, okay, because we look at life as the foundation of our spirituality. So there is -- there is a grounded aspect to our spirituality that plays itself out in a philosophy and a certain psychology. And that plays itself out in terms of value systems and the choices that we make as a result of that value system.

Q. So do you believe that the Native American practices that are in place at the Prison have to, I think you used the word mesh, with the general clinical process that -- should I call it European -- the clinical process that’s part of the Prison program?

A. They should for the best outcome.

Q. And what type of things do you have to do to try to facilitate that meshing or the co-existence or whatever the right word is for the fact that if everybody is straight about it, you’re providing some sort of benefit to the residents and the Prison staff is providing some sort of different benefit to the residents.

A. Okay. And this is where we get at, you know, divergent paths. We get assumptions that are in place that actually have two different goals. And there’s a misunderstanding between the two, the two value systems, the two cultures. For instance, one of the things that the clinical people were surprised to find out was they didn’t understand why the Native Circle members didn’t want to participate in therapy. They couldn’t understand the reasoning behind it. I told them,  the one thing that I’m hearing from the Native residents is that they didn’t like going into therapy with a therapist trying to teach them how to become a white man. The Clinical staff still couldn’t understand what that really meant. So, what was needed was some understanding of the cultural values that define us as a people and that those values drive our motivation. Anything that takes us away from our value systems erodes at our identity. Once that was understood, there was more nuance to the clinical language and their approach to talking to the Native residents, and that has changed things considerably for the positive. They also began to understand that one of our ceremonial goals is to prepare the men for therapy, so there’s really no trying to replace one with the other. It’s a matter of getting things lined up so they track.

Q. So you don’t sound like you see it as an either/or kind of thing.

A. Oh, absolutely not. When you have both the ceremonial and the clinical you have a very, very powerful and good end result.

Q. So do you actively encourage residents who are not treatment participants to participate in the treatment program?

A. Absolutely, but with the caveat of them being clear enough about who they are to help their therapist understand what it is they need.

Q. So that’s --

A. As a Native person.

Q. That wasn’t something that -- I actually couldn’t translate that into something that is meaningful for me. Can you give me an example, without naming a person? How would one not be ready to --

A. Okay. For instance, like you mentioned earlier, and this is true of really all people, people who are ignorant to their own condition, their own state as it were. And those people are often times the ones who get into trouble. So awareness needs to grow and how a person becomes aware of what’s going on inside of them, what are those forces, what are those precepts that they were born into, and how they influence the way they evolve and the way they see things, their perspective on things, their perception of things. Those are all things that need to be in place to a certain degree so that they can, in the case of a Native person, so they can say, yes, this is who I am, these are the value systems that I try to live up to and I hold close because they’re important to me and it helps me to know who I am. And then they need to be able to talk to their therapist. If the therapist is not aware, the patient needs to be able to make the case to the therapist about what it is that they’re about, what it is they need. And then the therapist can work with those issues in a respectful way and hopefully help bring a person along by saying things like - So, these are your values. Well, are you really living up to those values? That’s the kind of guided conversation that comes from awareness.

Q. And I’ve been assuming since the day I started this work that the value system of that organization would include not committing things that are against the law in the state of Washington. Is that a correct assumption?

A. That is very correct.

Q. So there is at least common ground to start with; is that fair?

A. Yes. There are many commonalities.

Q. Can you tell me what some of the other ones are? I think sometimes when people talk to you they focus on the things that are divergent, people in my position when they talk to you. So what things do you see as easily co-existing?

A. Well, respect for law and order, respect for earned positions of responsibility, respect for commitment and sacrifice, respect for elders who have achieved and been able to maintain you might say a higher level of understanding about the nature of life and going forward. Those people are cherished in white communities as well as Native communities, a respect for harmony and co-existence, a respect for -- and this is where the Metis and the Native community really excels, and that is the concept of inclusion. We are very inclusive in terms of accepting other spiritual traditions and actually incorporating them and allowing them to co-exist with our own. So that’s actually one of the highest values that we have. And there is a commonality with the larger culture and the Freedom of Religion Act, which actually co-exists right alongside of our value systems. So you’ll find people that are Buddhist and Christian and Muslim. I haven’t run into a Muslim in ceremony yet, but they would be welcome in our ceremonies as long as they were able to be respectful of the ceremony.

Q. That’s helpful. So now I think I’m at the point where I want to give you an opportunity to explain what you see as the role of the practices that you engage in generally and if it’s different or if it’s more narrow with the respect to the residents at the Prison. So if that’s too broad of a question, I’ll say that I’ve read a couple of papers that talk about generational trauma and things of

that sort.

A. Okay.

Q. And it’s my understanding that that’s one of the important tenets that lies underneath the practice. Is that correct or am I wrong about that?

A. I’m not sure exactly what you’re asking. Are you saying that trauma is one of the issues that’s addressed or it’s part of the spiritual practice?

Q. Well, it’s my understanding that one of the things that the spiritual practice was intended to address was this trauma issue.

A. Yes.

Q. So it was also my understanding that the purpose, if that’s not too specific of a word, is broader than that, that’s not the only objective.

A. Yes. But they are actually kind of answered simultaneously.

Q. So if you’re comfortable with a really vague question, I’ll just say just explain to me how you see the role of the practices that you are liaison for in the lives of the men at the Prison.

A. Okay. Let me see if I can answer this holistically. Are you aware of something called ancestry.com?

Q. I’ve heard of it.

A. Well, a lot of people take part in ancestry.com as part of their genealogy research that they take on, usually for their own reasons around their personal family story, and that’s important to people for a variety of reasons. Well, in our culture we look to our ancestral line as the basis by which we understand who we are today and also some of the things that our ancestors stood for and how those sacrifices and values basically play themselves out in our lives today. So the role of trauma is that trauma became such a -- and this is the nature of trauma overall -- that trauma becomes such an important event or series of events that it winds up obscuring that ancestral influence. The trauma becomes more important than the ancestral line, the influence of the ancestral line. So we wind up with trauma that becomes an influence that in some cases, in many cases, results in the breakdown of families, breakdown of communities, breakdown of value systems, breakdown of the individual and eventually you wind up with a hand-to-mouth survival mentality that I believe results in criminal behavior or self-deprecating behavior. So what we do in ceremony is we take them into an environment that essentially is, you might say it holds the individual in a larger context than their personal experience with trauma. The ceremony itself is a reflection of those things that were handed down from before memory. So you’re talking about a ceremony that links us to a history that existed well before the traumatic events that altered Native American culture. So that’s essentially the role of the ceremony. It takes us all the way back to the good that existed before the great fall. I mean, that’s it at its source. The ceremonial protocols, the language, the songs that are sung, those things that we focus on, those are built right into the ceremony, and those teachings are as old as the sweat lodge itself. So it plays out on many, many levels. It’s kind of a history lesson. It’s a way of essentially connecting with the intent of the ancestors who did that very same ceremony for the very same reasons. So you can see, I mean, the implications are huge,

and the more you do ceremony, the more often you do it, the more you’re able to link with that history.

Q. It sounds like you see behavior of the individual as in part contact stuff of their view of themselves on the planet or in the community of other individuals.

A. Oh, absolutely, yes, yes, great perception.

Q. So having been cut off, if that’s not --

A. No, it’s perfect.

Q. -- cut off from that between the 1500’s and the 1800’s, I guess depending on where one was located on this continent, being cut off from that culture, many people have been left to drift. Am I oversimplifying? I’m sure I’m oversimplifying things, but I’m trying to get the gist of what you’re telling me.

A. Yes. And we’re talking about generations of pain and loss.

Q. So as a counter example, we have folks from, you know, refugees from Laos where the whole culture was essentially wiped out in the 1960’s, and I’ve worked with some of these. Some of these people grew up without parents or without any kind of connection, and that was a short time frame, but they were completely isolated from their culture, sometimes with really dramatically bad

results.

A. Um-hmm.

Q. So if I understand it -- and, again, I’m oversimplifying because I’m sort of trying to get a big picture understanding of where you’re coming from, that by

putting people back in touch with the culture from whence they came that was successful at teaching people how to behave, you have an impact on the way these folks behave going forward. Does that capture part of it?

A. Oh, absolutely, yes. And it’s profound in its effect.

Q. Tell me why you say that.

A. Well, first of all, the sweat lodge itself, even for people that are nonnative who come to the lodge in need, and I’ve seen this at the VA, you know, men who have post traumatic stress, in some cases hopeless, and they’re out in the domiciliary and there’s a reason for them being there, they will come into the lodge with kind of a look of hopelessness in their eyes. Sometimes even after one round of the sweat lodge you can see the lights come on in their eyes again. The lodge provides a different context in which to evaluate one’s problems. It is built into the nature of the lodge. The environment itself is so completely different and the spirit of hope and the way in which that is promoted ceremonially through how its led, it has a very powerful effect. And I can’t underscore enough the effect that it has on people. Now, it is important that the purpose of the individual is in keeping with the good outcomes that are possible through the lodge. So what we do is we help a person elevate their purpose in being there, and that comes through education, in some cases actually therapy can help elevate a person’s purpose, so with that statement we come full circle to see how one affects the other.

Q. So I’ve had conversation with some of your colleagues about this notion of the elevated purpose and how the individual is prepared for that. Can you explain to me what you mean by that? Pretend that I, if it makes it easier, pretend that you were trying to help me elevate my purpose in coming to this sweat lodge. How would you do that process?

A. Okay. for instance, let’s say that you were stuck on wanting to keep a grudge alive and came to the sweat lodge seeking strength in being able to maintain that grudge, then that is not an elevated purpose and the outcome of the lodge for you would simply be less than what’s possible and may even support you in continuing that line of thinking with potentially very negative outcomes. However, if you come to lodge with the idea of sweating to relinquish negative personal issues in favor of the larger concepts and ideals and awarenesses that can be brought in from the ancestral line, those things that were life affirming, that once maintained and grew the relationships that were and are so important, not only to the sweat lodge ceremony itself but to the larger community that individuals are currently responsible for and have historically been responsible for, then those personal grudges and gripes begin to just fall away, because one understand that one's purpose is in alignment with a much greater truth and purpose, one which is holistic, sophisticated and mature.

Q. And it sounds like one might be able to sort of translate that more specifically to the fellows at the Prison. So trauma sounds like it’s related to the way they’ve grown up and the attitudes they have and their personality and these things have all contributed to their offending behavior.

A. Yes. We have what we call a trauma remediation group which is basically a trauma education group -- we come together and we talk about the issue of trauma and how it’s played out in our families. Sometimes there is some emotion in the way these stories are told. But more important it’s about getting an understanding of the shared experience of trauma for all decendents of Native heritage. We all share it, we all have stories to tell about how it has played itself out in our families. Earlier you talked about people that are raised in the urban environment, they have no language, they have no ceremony and no culture. Well, the one thing they (we)  all have and share is compromised family systems, dysfunctional families. And then when you trace that back, eventually we find the original loss event(s), Once you can see that line, you can see that pattern of it as it plays out even today. So the issue of trauma, once it’s understood, a person can put into context some of their bad choices, why those seemed rational at the time . Like, there’s nothing else for them so, they just kind of throw everything aside. They have nothing to live for and so they take what they want and they don’t care about the consequences for anybody including themselves really.

Q. I think it’s an idea in sort of traditional corrections work that somebody has to have something to lose --

A. Exactly.

Q. -- in order to --

A. Wonderful that you brought that up. I almost said that.

Q. All right, we’re on the same page on that. So one of the things that seems like it’s been harder to mesh the two sort of approaches is my understanding is that in the Prison treatment program there’s a fair component of confrontation.

A. Yes.

Q. And there are folks in treatment -- let me try it a little bit differently. There are folks that I have spoken to who have progressed in treatment who have said one of their early obstacles was denial. Is there a component of the sweat lodge that helps people address that and how does that work?

A. Yes. Now, this is going to sound strange, and of course, now I’m not going to talk for all elders; I’m going to talk for myself and the way I understand things.

First of all, and I was taught by Stan H, and he is a Lakota elder, 85 years old, Korean war veteran, Sundancer, deeply ceremonial rooted, but he said you never take something away from someone unless you give them something first. So essentially with the individuals that have committed some pretty heinous crimes in many cases, they have to have something in place before they can really approach that difficult material. So their relationship and their understanding of who they are ceremonially and through their ancestral line, it’s imperative that that be strong enough for them to actually be able to confront the issues and make good use of that confrontation. So it’s not a matter of if, it’s a matter of when.

Q. That’s actually quite helpful to me to try to understand, you know, the disconnect between these two approaches. So as I understand the Prison treatment process, one of the things that happens is the therapists have access to these records that say -- and I’m not suggesting that these are the unvarnished truth, but they’re the things that people said these guys did or the things they pled to or the things that they previously told people they did. There’s a variety of the source of this information, right, and those are part of the, for good, bad or indifferent, it’s what follows these guys through the process in the government.

A. I’m very aware of this.

Q. So the question I have to ask is how do you know when the guy is being straightforward with you, if you do, or is that not part of your role?

A. Okay. That’s an interesting question. I’ve had somebody ask me how do you know these guys are telling you the truth.

Q. Can I move the question over a little bit. I think it was Mr. NA actually who told me once that when the person wants to ask the creator for help in working

through something, then that person has to kind of know what they want to work through.

A. Yes, I would agree with that.

Q. And I thought that was one of those, you know, sounds obvious until you realize, until somebody said it to you  1you didn’t know, that kind of thing.

A. Um-hmm. No, that’s a good answer.

Q. I think it was in a conversation he and I were having about something along these lines -- and I’m not speaking for Mr. NA -- but my sense was that wasn’t part of the role was that you’re not checking off to see if the guy’s perception of what he’s done matches the records.

 A. Yes. I mean, our way is a way of sacrifice. The sweat lodge is definitely an uncomfortable place to be. And you don’t go in there to prove what a tough guy you are. You go in there to make sacrifice for something better. And that can be for your own improvement and it can be for the well-being of someone else. The bottom line is the most powerful sacrifice is the sacrifice that’s made out of love. So that connection has to be in place for the true potency of the experience to be something that’s realized and to make a change in an individual. Once a person is able to do that, you’re talking about a person that is profoundly different. And even facing their crimes, it has to come from that place. So we’re talking about, you know, years and years and years of practice that result in people incrementally changing towards the good, towards the good, towards the good until they can eventually face the truth of what they’ve done and then address the issues appropriately.

Q. Okay.

A. So it’s not like you can take them in and say, are you telling me the truth. It’s much deeper than that. And we as ceremonial elders, we can feel it. It’s the kind

of thing that’s -- it’s pretty clear when a person is, you know, trying to talk to you about something versus actually embodying it. So we pay more attention to the state of the person than even the words coming out of their mouth.

Q. So we’re all on sort of a restricted timeline, and my goal was to explore the areas of this that I thought were most likely to come up, right. I wasn’t trying -- I was trying to engage you in a philosophical discussion, but I was trying to sort of guide it to sort of on point to the case. Does that make sense?

A. Oh, no, it’s perfect, appropriate I feel. 

Q. So I’m about to shift my focus to Mr. Doe, okay?

A. Um-hmm.

Q. And I just thought if you feel that what we have talked about so far has been too much guided by me and you think there’s something that you want to tell me, you know what I mean, the sort of limited duration to put everything in context, this would be an opportunity for you to do that. Does what I’m telling you make sense to you?

A. Um-hmm.

Q. I want to make sure that you don’t feel like I sort of tried to push you into a corner and gotten you to say things that give an inaccurate perception of what you folks do out there.

A. I don’t think so so far. It sounds to me that your questions were in alignment with the, and responsive to some of the things that I previously said, and so I think that the line of questioning has been a deepening of the understanding. And that’s what I had hoped would happen.

Q. Sometimes we in a trial situation, sometimes we’ll ask yes or no questions. And having been on the other side of that, I think that sometimes makes people feel that, well, you didn’t really let me tell the story, you just tried to get me to agree with you or disagree with you or whatever. And that’s not what I’m trying to do here. So with that, as long as we’re good with that, I’m just going to kind of move specifically to Mr. Doe, and I think I will be pretty brief.

A. You’ve done a good job up until now.

Q. We talked sort of informally about that at more length, I think, than you obviously anticipated off the record; is that fair?

A. That’s fair, yes.

Q. Other than the things that we’ve talked about during the deposition, what sort of things do you think that if you were allowed to you would provide to the court? What would you tell the court if you were allowed to?

A. Oh, I have some very clear ideas of the kind of therapeutic approach, psychological therapy that’s appropriate that I believe syncs up with the sweat lodge, the experience and the concepts around the sweat lodge. And so, you know, I would probably like to state those things that I believe are a must for John to get the best possible care and treatment ongoing.

Q. Tell me what those are.

A. I believe I might have described it earlier to NA. It has to do with somatic therapy, which is a very highly effective form of therapy for trauma. And if you need more information on that, you need to look up Peter Levine and how he works with veterans and the concepts of trauma around trauma. Trauma is understood to be something that has less to do with the psychological processes and has more to do with the actual state of the being which the psychological processes come out of. So the therapy form, which somatic therapy is, it addresses the state of the individual first. And I believe that’s an important difference in therapeutic models.

Q. And going from a situation that’s quite restrictive to a situation that is unrestricted has challenges; is that right?

A. Yes, exactly. You just said something, a situation that’s restricted versus unrestricted. The restriction that a person with a criminal history as well as no understanding of the influences of trauma, those things that trigger and drive

a person, if those understandings are not in place then it’s It’s almost a reckless abandon to letting someone out who hasn’t accomplished, you know, some level of insight into their own state of being. So the restrictions that you’re talking about which are external, need to be in place internally. That’s what we’re talking about here. And so if you go to sweat lodge, you’ve got a community of people that you frequent with, you’re involved in recovery, you’ve got a community of people that support you in that and you go to a therapeutic resource that is on target, that comprises a community of not only support but also a mental container of understanding and safety. So that needs to be clear in this court process so that people can really evaluate whether or not John is ready for release.

Q. I think I’m just at the point where I’m going to do a couple of housekeeping things, because one of these things I do as part of this process is test my

assumptions. I think I know things just based on inferences from the information, and I want to solidify some of those, okay?

A. Okay.

Q. I think you told me, it seems like a long time ago probably to you, about how you sort of came to the position that you’re in in the community. Do you have a

formal psychological training or anything like that? Formal is not the right word actually. I should say European, through a university or something like that?

A. Yes, I went to Kent State University in a commercial art direction and corporate identity program. I’ve also attended Northwest Indian College in their drug and alcohol counseling program. So, I’ve probably got about seven or eight years in college.

On Behalf of the Petitioner:

Office of the Attorney General:

I’m finished. That’s all the questions I have for you.